Comments on: Order out the Window http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/ The glamorous life and thoughts of a concert pianist. Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:34:50 -0500 hourly 1 By: Alessio http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/comment-page-1/#comment-3525 Alessio Fri, 04 Jan 2008 02:54:56 +0000 http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/#comment-3525 That is a tough one, Jeremy. I think we are on the same page. I do agree with Schiff, but only as a starting point. Without a clear understanding of this incredible structure, and of its "incredible sense of order" it is impossible to dig deep enough into the Fugue of the HK and bring out all the amazing treasures hidden in all its winding black notes.... On the other hand, it is some of the most extreme music ever written, both emotionally and intellectually. If an extremely analytical approach to the fugue results into a simplification and a more dull rendering of the Fugue, then this is the worst thing one could do. In my humble opinion, it should sound as shocking as it must have been when it was first performed. In other words, it all starts from the clarity of structure which should provide a stark contrast with the "bonker-ish" character that the theme alone sets, and only a geniusly wild mind could exploit to such a degree. I have this overwhelming feeling that Beethoven simply ran out of piano while writing this fugue, which is the culmination of the most amazing journey a pianist can take within a single piece. Then there can be a whole discussion about the struggle between structure/clarity and the extreme emotions and complexity of the music which is quintessential in Beethoven's music and of which the HK is the perfect example. How to resolve this struggle, walk back and forth across this fine line, and how to do that in the context of a performance, night after night, is a problem that we are left to deal with and which, you must admit, makes our life extremely interesting and worth living. Anyhow....hope you're having fun, and that life is treating you well...all the best for your upcoming performances and hope to meet again soon... That is a tough one, Jeremy. I think we are on the same page. I do agree with Schiff, but only as a starting point. Without a clear understanding of this incredible structure, and of its “incredible sense of order” it is impossible to dig deep enough into the Fugue of the HK and bring out all the amazing treasures hidden in all its winding black notes….
On the other hand, it is some of the most extreme music ever written, both emotionally and intellectually. If an extremely analytical approach to the fugue results into a simplification and a more dull rendering of the Fugue, then this is the worst thing one could do. In my humble opinion, it should sound as shocking as it must have been when it was first performed. In other words, it all starts from the clarity of structure which should provide a stark contrast with the “bonker-ish” character that the theme alone sets, and only a geniusly wild mind could exploit to such a degree. I have this overwhelming feeling that Beethoven simply ran out of piano while writing this fugue, which is the culmination of the most amazing journey a pianist can take within a single piece.
Then there can be a whole discussion about the struggle between structure/clarity and the extreme emotions and complexity of the music which is quintessential in Beethoven’s music and of which the HK is the perfect example.
How to resolve this struggle, walk back and forth across this fine line, and how to do that in the context of a performance, night after night, is a problem that we are left to deal with and which, you must admit, makes our life extremely interesting and worth living.

Anyhow….hope you’re having fun, and that life is treating you well…all the best for your upcoming performances and hope to meet again soon…

]]> By: sfmike http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/comment-page-1/#comment-3513 sfmike Tue, 01 Jan 2008 03:36:27 +0000 http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/#comment-3513 I have a wise and witty friend in his late 70s in Santa Barbara, a retired university professor, who sent me this account of an Andres Schiff Beethoven concert in October. Thought you might appreciate it. "Last Friday I went down to the Lobero to an Andras Schiff all-Beethoven sonata recital. I noted in the LATimes review of his Wednesday performance at Disney Hall that some woman had collapsed in the fifth row and had to be taken out on a stretcher (the review added that a staff check found the woman was fine the next day). I failed to take sufficient stock of the observation that Schiff's playing lacked drama and failed to hold your interest. Well, what is a reviewer to do when Schiff's advanced puff presents him as one of the greatest pianists in the world? Of course, the puff always insists on his pianism (whatever that is), his meticulous attention to detail (probably likely in the case of any pianist getting ready for a performance), and on and on. It was pouring outside the Lobero, so I waited in the lobby looking for Jill, who was supposed to show up. I retreated to my seat, clapped dutifully as Schiff sat down at the gleaming Steinway. The program was Sonatas 5 through 8 (he's doing the whole series for EMC). I knew immediately that there was trouble ahead from the very first phrase. Brent's always told me he hates mechanical pianists. And here was a painfully exemplary case. Admittedly, no one can complain that he missed any of the notes or that he couldn't make the various voices clear, etc. But what wasn't comically bad was just unequivocably painful. Several times I couldn't resist muttering "ouch." Then there was the bizarre disconnect between the rapturous look on his face and the plodding fingers on the keys. A later conversation with Jill at intermission (as we were both fleeing---hey, the "Pathétique" was the second half, as if we needed it) confirmed that the watchword was definitely "aburrimiento." The mystery of the supine woman in Disney Hall was explained: she'd been bored to death. Now here's the clincher. You can download the CD with the identical concert from EMC on your iPod for a derisory fee. I did so. I want to share the experience with Brent. Brent, by the way, who is known for an unexplained homicidal streak, would probably have jumped on the stage and throttled Andras before the stage hands could intervene I have a wise and witty friend in his late 70s in Santa Barbara, a retired university professor, who sent me this account of an Andres Schiff Beethoven concert in October. Thought you might appreciate it.

“Last Friday I went down to the Lobero to an Andras Schiff all-Beethoven sonata recital. I noted in the LATimes review of his Wednesday performance at Disney Hall that some woman had collapsed in the fifth row and had to be taken out on a stretcher (the review added that a staff check found the woman was fine the next day). I failed to take sufficient stock of the observation that Schiff’s playing lacked drama and failed to hold your interest. Well, what is a reviewer to do when Schiff’s advanced puff presents him as one of the greatest pianists in the world? Of course, the puff always insists on his pianism (whatever that is), his meticulous attention to detail (probably likely in the case of any pianist getting ready for a performance), and on and on.

It was pouring outside the Lobero, so I waited in the lobby looking for Jill, who was supposed to show up. I retreated to my seat, clapped dutifully as Schiff sat down at the gleaming Steinway. The program was Sonatas 5 through 8 (he’s doing the whole series for EMC). I knew immediately that there was trouble ahead from the very first phrase. Brent’s always told me he hates mechanical pianists. And here was a painfully exemplary case. Admittedly, no one can complain that he missed any of the notes or that he couldn’t make the various voices clear, etc. But what wasn’t comically bad was just unequivocably painful. Several times I couldn’t resist muttering “ouch.” Then there was the bizarre disconnect between the rapturous look on his face and the plodding fingers on the keys.

A later conversation with Jill at intermission (as we were both fleeing—hey, the “Pathétique” was the second half, as if we needed it) confirmed that the watchword was definitely “aburrimiento.” The mystery of the supine woman in Disney Hall was explained: she’d been bored to death. Now here’s the clincher. You can download the CD with the identical concert from EMC on your iPod for a derisory fee. I did so. I want to share the experience with Brent. Brent, by the way, who is known for an unexplained homicidal streak, would probably have jumped on the stage and throttled Andras before the stage hands could intervene

]]> By: Jack http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/comment-page-1/#comment-3512 Jack Tue, 01 Jan 2008 01:37:18 +0000 http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/#comment-3512 I have not yet had the fortune of listening to Schiff's recent Beethoven interpretations, nor will I (it's to damned expensive to buy Carnegie tickets when you're an undergrad student), but I am familiar with Schiff's symmetrical, dare I say-prudent- way of tackling the music of the great Germans. I agree with you and with Jose, the first commenter, in that Beethoven's legendary status has caused his music to be overly analyzed at the keyboard. However, what must also be in mind is that Beethoven did live in a more or less "orderly" Europe, with the Industrial Revolution and its mechanically perfect machines and all. Not to mention that his receding sense of hearing most definitely forced him into thinking more systematically and less spontaneously(improvising my means of fiddling at the keyboard must have been arbitrary at that point for him). My point: late Beethoven is painfully difficult to interpret; one must be able to not only make sense of the seemingly "orderly" and "improvisatory" passages , but must synthesize the two, and still bring in an original personal voice, for it is still music. Then again, I'll see for myself when I take on the Hammerklavier myself. -jack I have not yet had the fortune of listening to Schiff’s recent Beethoven interpretations, nor will I (it’s to damned expensive to buy Carnegie tickets when you’re an undergrad student), but I am familiar with Schiff’s symmetrical, dare I say-prudent- way of tackling the music of the great Germans.

I agree with you and with Jose, the first commenter, in that Beethoven’s legendary status has caused his music to be overly analyzed at the keyboard. However, what must also be in mind is that Beethoven did live in a more or less “orderly” Europe, with the Industrial Revolution and its mechanically perfect machines and all. Not to mention that his receding sense of hearing most definitely forced him into thinking more systematically and less spontaneously(improvising my means of fiddling at the
keyboard must have been arbitrary at that point for him).

My point: late Beethoven is painfully difficult to interpret; one must be able to not only make sense of the seemingly “orderly” and “improvisatory” passages , but must synthesize the two, and still bring in an original personal voice, for it is still music.

Then again, I’ll see for myself when I take on the Hammerklavier myself.
-jack

]]> By: Jane http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/comment-page-1/#comment-3509 Jane Thu, 27 Dec 2007 20:28:38 +0000 http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/#comment-3509 Thanks for these playful yet penetrating insights. Seussian: a wonderful comparison. We played the "Grosse Fuge" (an animal similar to the "Hammerklavier") in our orchestra recently, which was a bit like trying to walk four huge, scary-looking dogs who really, really mean no harm. Thanks for these playful yet penetrating insights. Seussian: a wonderful comparison. We played the “Grosse Fuge” (an animal similar to the “Hammerklavier”) in our orchestra recently, which was a bit like trying to walk four huge, scary-looking dogs who really, really mean no harm.

]]> By: sheil http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/comment-page-1/#comment-3507 sheil Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:30:52 +0000 http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/#comment-3507 I think that Schiff's primary motive is simply to educate, rather than to dictate. A novice to any masterpiece is at an immediate advantage if given some anchorage at the outset; then once he's gotten an initial grip, he can start getting really fatheaded and bellowing WRONG! and BUNK! at all of those despicable rules that helped him before, but are wrecking his fun in the end. Most interesting is how each person's analysis describes the ANALYST to a 'T' more than it does the piece. I mean, who knows what was really going on in Beethoven's system? Would he WANT us invading it anyway? That said, I shall now expose myself with obscene abandon, by suggesting that the B-natural appoggiatura MIGHT simply be a reference to all of the other B-natural/B-flat battles that punctuate this thing. He just went 'bonkers' with it in the end, pulling all of the neighbors into a big fat brawl. Also, remember that Opus 106 was written at a REALLY miserable pass in Beethoven's life. And while I hear alot of you guys's "triumph" and "humor" etc. in it, I also hear that titanic ego that makes me want to smash the !#%*/!! GLASS CASE at Starbuck's, just because it looks like it thinks it's smart. Besides, by 1818, the Industrial Revolution was hot underway, and one can't help wondering if our psychic Titan wasn't experiencing serious whiffs of the surreal nightmare of machines, deafening noise, and relentless speed that would one day run over us all whenever we stepped outside of our doors. (Oops, busted...) I think that Schiff’s primary motive is simply to educate, rather than to dictate. A novice to any masterpiece is at an immediate advantage if given some anchorage at the outset; then once he’s gotten an initial grip, he can start getting really fatheaded and bellowing WRONG! and BUNK! at all of those despicable rules that helped him before, but are wrecking his fun in the end. Most interesting is how each person’s analysis describes the ANALYST to a ‘T’ more than it does the piece. I mean, who knows what was really going on in Beethoven’s system? Would he WANT us invading it anyway?

That said, I shall now expose myself with obscene abandon, by suggesting that the B-natural appoggiatura MIGHT simply be a reference to all of the other B-natural/B-flat battles that punctuate this thing. He just went ‘bonkers’ with it in the end, pulling all of the neighbors into a big fat brawl.

Also, remember that Opus 106 was written at a REALLY miserable pass in Beethoven’s life. And while I hear alot of you guys’s “triumph” and “humor” etc. in it, I also hear that titanic ego that makes me want to smash the !#%*/!! GLASS CASE at Starbuck’s, just because it looks like it thinks it’s smart. Besides, by 1818, the Industrial Revolution was hot underway, and one can’t help wondering if our psychic Titan wasn’t experiencing serious whiffs of the surreal nightmare of machines, deafening noise, and relentless speed that would one day run over us all whenever we stepped outside of our doors. (Oops, busted…)

]]> By: Siong http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/comment-page-1/#comment-3506 Siong Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:29:59 +0000 http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/#comment-3506 Hello, I am a self-taught pianist (and terrible one at that) who has never really liked any composers other than Bach, all because of his fugues. I just could not understand Beethoven but this has given me some insight to it, so thank you very much! Hello, I am a self-taught pianist (and terrible one at that) who has never really liked any composers other than Bach, all because of his fugues. I just could not understand Beethoven but this has given me some insight to it, so thank you very much!

]]> By: Doug Palmer http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/comment-page-1/#comment-3500 Doug Palmer Mon, 24 Dec 2007 18:17:49 +0000 http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/#comment-3500 Sound like chaos to who? Music may make sense to a genius Like Mr. Denk I'm sure God can understand the great music embedded in chaos, after all he invented chaos, but I can't Sound like chaos to who?
Music may make sense to a genius Like Mr. Denk
I’m sure God can understand the great music embedded in chaos, after all he invented chaos, but I can’t

]]> By: Marcus http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/comment-page-1/#comment-3497 Marcus Sun, 23 Dec 2007 21:24:26 +0000 http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/#comment-3497 Great post, as always! And I'm sure you play the fugue much more fabulously than Mr. Schiff. I was just bored to tears by his recording of the last movement of Schubert's D784. What should be a tempest sounded like sugarplums. Hope you're well!! Great post, as always! And I’m sure you play the fugue much more fabulously than Mr. Schiff. I was just bored to tears by his recording of the last movement of Schubert’s D784. What should be a tempest sounded like sugarplums. Hope you’re well!!

]]> By: Jason Heath’s Double Bass Blog » links for 2007-12-23 http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/comment-page-1/#comment-3495 Jason Heath’s Double Bass Blog » links for 2007-12-23 Sun, 23 Dec 2007 05:22:35 +0000 http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/#comment-3495 [...] Order out the Window Another great post from the always thought-provoking Jeremy Denk. (tags: jeremy denk thinkdenk classical music blog) [...] [...] Order out the Window Another great post from the always thought-provoking Jeremy Denk. (tags: jeremy denk thinkdenk classical music blog) [...]

]]> By: rchrd http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/comment-page-1/#comment-3493 rchrd Sat, 22 Dec 2007 09:04:25 +0000 http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/12/21/order-out-the-window/#comment-3493 Ach! Read "There ARE so many unexpected surprises..." Ach! Read “There ARE so many unexpected surprises…”

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